Last night, the CNN program, Anderson Cooper 360, aired the final segment of Gary Tuchman’s three part series on Pinehaven Christian Children’s Ranch.
Charlie Duke with Gary Tuchman (CNN)
Following a suicide attempt by the 15-year-old rape victim, Cassie was admitted in a licensed mental health care facility by her mother to receive appropriate medical and mental health treatment. By all counts Cassie was receiving such treatment when Charlie Duke crossed the state line from Illinois to Indiana to pay a visit to the traumatized and heavily medicated 15-year-old rape survivor. Cassie’s mother was not present. During this visit, Charlie convinced Cassie to sign what is arguably an illegal “contract” committing herself to Pinehaven Christian Children’s Ranch.
Pinehaven Christian children’s Ranch is nearly two thousand miles (2000) away from any support system this rape victim would have been beneficial to her recovery from the rape trauma, and other difficulties from her young life.
Instead, Charlie Duke was able to get a court order from Judge Larry Dunn to send this young, suicidal, 15-year-old rape survivor to Pinehaven Christian Children’s Ranch – a facility without any mental health professionals. Without any licensed therapist or licensed professional counselors, and without state licensing, regulation or accreditation.
According to her mother, Paula Bowen, after Cassie was transferred to Pinehaven in St. Ignatius, Montana where she was taken off all medically prescribed psychiatric medications, Cassie started to self-mutilate. Remember Pinehaven doesn’t have licensed therapists.
Charlie Dunn said at the end of the segment that Pinehaven is “the finest children’s home I have ever visited.”
Charlie Dunn was awarded with the plague pictured below at the Pinehaven June 5, 2011 graduation.
Please read these screen shots from Charlie Dukes facebook page.
29 kids from the same five county (5) area over the years? Could it be true that this part Illinois is what Gary Tuchman labeled the “Illinois Pipeline” of children to Pinehaven?
This situation sounds eerily similar to the 2008 Kids For Cash Scandal in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania. Personally, I think the good people of Olney, Illinois should demand an investigation into this.
UPDATE: Cassie has been court ordered to returned home at the end of the school year, June 5, 2012.
Cassie Casteel
Please see the blog by James Mason, survivor of Pinehaven who was interviewed by Gary Tuchman at pinehavenabuse.org for more information.
I realize that my sons needed mental health treatment in order to deal with the IFB abuse.after they were grown and it was almost too late. These IFBs are not trained to deal with these issues because they are not trained. Even if they have a Christian Counseling degree they are still not ..trained because the IFB see the mental health issues as sin. The IFB abuse kids cause PTSD and then tell the minor they are sinning because they have PTSD. That is a cycle of abuse I have identified in the IFB. How many kids have been left to suffer at the hands of the IFB so called counselors only Tobe further traumatized as SINNERS or left untreated, I am a licensed therapist and the pain and suffering that is caused by the Ungodly Discipline used by the IFB has left many children emotionally crippled. Thank God for Gary Tuckman’s work to shed light on this abuse..
I’m glad Cassie has been ordered home but not till June 5???
I saw all the segments of this series.
I think Anderson Cooper is to be praised
for great investigative reporting and
exposing such a chiling, cultist group!
I loved it when the old goat who ran the
place said the Devil was behind all
the negative press…there they go
again trying to make themselves
martyrs for the cruelty and sadism
they perpetrate in the name of
Christianity! Disgusting and truly
vile!
Exposing? Anderson cooper did nothing but show a one sided story. do a little research and see for your self!
What garbage! So predictable! When
confronted with FACTS, you and your
fellow Savonarols hope to silence
truth tellers by one liners that prove
nothing except that fanatics never
deal in facts, just mindless one
liners! You’re a walking stereotype
of just what is wrong with the cults
like the one Anderson do perfectly
exposed!
“Expose” … as in “to uncover something previously unseen and/or shed light on it”. Nobody said it was an “expose` (with the accent) piece” … but there were three men I saw who had their @$$es hanging out more than a little.
Try again and bring some facts of your own. The stretch statement by the old man noting this was essentially a church and not subject to any regulation translates to “churches can do whatever the HEdoublehockeytix they want to do.” Try telling that to the Catholic church and see what the response is.
C.P.
It’s been confirmed, Barry, that you are incorrect. Statistical data just done recently states this:
“To those that may say that Anderson Cooper’s coverage of Pinehaven was biased…here’s the raw, inarguable data. Pinehaven and its supporters were given 41% of the airtime, while those with opposing opinions were only given 21%.”
How predictable! When crimes or
equally disgusting actions are made
public, the self righteous radical right
will either claim they are martyrs for
their saintly actions and/or the press
is biased against them in their so
called “war on religion!”
Only their followers are fooled. The
rest of us see their excuses as sadly
predictable.
Amazing that anyone would try to
defend that horrible place! They
admitted to their abusive ways, of
course they were quick to add they
have ceased such “disciplinary”
tactics. So no one needs to do
“research”…Anderson did it for
us!
So, they keep her until June 5????? WTF are they thinking? She’s not going to be abused in any way in the 2 months plus between now and then?
I have done a ton of research on Pine Haven I knew someone who wanted to send her daughter there, she had not been in trouble with the law and she is a really good kid who needs her mother home to enforce the rules. I told her it wasnt a good idea I asked her if she had done any research of her own, but had not she said Charlie Duke said it is such a great place where they m,ake a two year commitment and graduate from high school. So I took it upon myself to call Pine Haven and ask lots of questions..Including do they graduate from high school the women said yes with a GED, then I asked the living aragements she said, there are 6 boys and 6 girls living in a house with hause parents that they call mother and father. ( i wouldnt want my children calling anyone else mother and father) I ask about punishment if there is a hands on approch she said no but tough love, and i asked what that may be, she said oh we ground them that sort of thing, I asked ground them from what they dont leave the place and she had no answer. I asked her what kind of Christian curriculum she could not answer that, I asked her what happens to them once they leave do they adjust to society, she said many come back to work there. I also asked her if they get much contact with there families she said they get to have calles, but they are moitered monitored by the house parents meaning they listen in on the other line, I also asked if the parents could visit, she said on occasion, but could not stay in the house with the children and thie child couldnt stay with there real parents. I feel there is alot of wrong doing at Pine Haven and people arnt hearing the real truth of what goes on behind close doors. I live in Olney and I have heard of Charlie Duke sending many children there, would he send his own there for suicide or sneaking out of the house. I dought it.
I HAVE BEEN TO PINEHAVEN RANCH 6 TIMES AND HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING OF THE SORT OF WHAT IS BEING DESCRIBED HERE. TOUGH LOVE, DISCIPLINE, WHY OF COURSE! CAN I ASK ALL YOU JUDGMENTAL PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN THERE JUST EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD DO TO DEFEND YOURSELVES IF A YOUTH WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO BE UNDER YOUR CONTROL STARTED TO HIT OR FIGHT WITH ANOTHER PERSON OR WAS GOING TO HIT YOU WITH WHO KNOWS WHAT? WHAT EXACTLY WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE FACED WITH THIS? WOULD YOU CLOBBER THEM, LET IT HAPPEN OR HOPE YOU WOULD HAVE TRAINING ON THE USE OF SOME NON INJURY STYLE RESTRAINT THAT WOULD GET THE JOB DONE? WOULD DO THINK THESE KIDS ARE DOING HERE? WOULD IT BE BETTER TO LET THEM LIVE LIFE IN A PLACE WHERE THEY WILL NOT LEARN TO BE A PRODUCTIVE PART OF SOCIETY LIKE THEY CAN LEARN AT PINEHAVEN, OR BE LEFT IN A SITUATION WHERE THEIR LIVES CONTINUE DOWNHILL TO WHERE THEY CANNOT BE RECOVERED FROM A WORLD OF UNCARING, UNGODLY LIFESTYLES WHERE PARENTAL DISCIPLINE SEEMS TO BE A THING OF THE PAST. GOD BLESS PINEHAVEN FROM THESE SATANIC ATTACKS. I HAVE SEEN FOR MYSELF MANY KIDS FROM START TO FINISH WHO WENT THROUGH PINEHAVENS “TOUGH LOVE” DISCIPLINE WHICH WAS DONE WITH LOVE AND NOT WHAT IS EXPRESSED OR SEEMS TO BE EXPLOITED HERE. IF SOME SEVERE DISCIPLINE HAS HAPPENED IT IS BECAUSE THE PAST STUDENTS REFUSED TO “GET IT” THAT THEY NEEDED TO COMPLY WITH THE STRUCTURE, BECAUSE ALL WHO DO NEVER HAVE ANY ISSUES. I MET AND ATE A FEW TIMES WITH THE PAST HOUSE PARENTS THAT ARE RAISING A CONCERN AND FEEL THAT THEY DID NOT AGREE WITH THE STYLE OF DISCIPLINE THAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR. UNRULY CHILDREN NEED TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS,. HOW THEY ENDED UP AT PINEHAVEN IS BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT UNDERSTAND THIS IN THE WORLD THEY LIVED IN. BOB LARSSON AND HIS CREW ARE SOME OF THE MOST GODLIEST PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET WHO GENUINELY CARE ABOUT THESE KIDS, BECAUSE I KNOW IT IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. IF YOU WANT TO JUDGE, GO THERE FOR YOURSELF, DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS ONE SIDED GARBAGE THAT DOES NOT REVEAL ALL THE FACTS! ONE MORE THING, IF PINEHAVEN THOUGHT THAT MENTAL ISSUES WERE A SIN, AS A COUNCILOR HAS DESCRIBED EARLIER, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE SET UP A HOME CALLED LIFE HOUSE FOR UNWED, TEENAGE MOTHERS WHO ARE NOT JUDGED BUT NOURISHED THROUGH THE TROUBLING TIMES OF TEEN MOTHERHOOD.
I agree Eugene! I have been there many times and have seen many upon many Success stories come out of Pinehaven.
I am sorry but I dont buy it…
You don’t have to “buy it” … because we’re not “selling” anything. You can come to your own conclusions, but the interview with the young man who was a Marine trumps any of the other mouthpieces for me.
And shuttling kids from Illinois to Montana … especially on a hyped-up “contract” that isn’t legal? Methinks I smell fraud at the minimum and more underneath.
C.P.
Shuttling? It happens all the time you find something good and you gravitate towards it. No childrens Pipeline. An Investigation was done by the police and no abuse was found so why does a CNN Reports story hold water in your eyes?
Also in the story it said Cassie signed to go to Pinehaven, cant happen she is a minor her mother would have had to sign or a court order Cassie could not make that call..
chuckles I guess I came off wrong in my comments and I am sorry.
I dont have an issue with the ones claiming abuse If they really were abused I am sorry NO ONE should ever have to go through physical abuse…. But my problem is with the news media. IMO they did a one sided story. They focused most of the attention on the alleged abuse and very little on the success of the program.
Barry,
First, thanks for being polite with your disagreement. You have no idea the people who come on here and are not.
The “regular flow” from Charlie Duke of kids from Illinois to Montana is what I find so troubling. Even the Federal Prison System tries to locate an inmate at a facility which is more readily accessible to family. That alone “smells badly” to many of us. You pile on the allegations of abuse (and the documentation of same) and it just plain stinks.
Unless CNN and AC360 are sued for liable, I have to believe their account where Cassie was allowed to sign a contract and it was executed. The fact that a judge ordered her home at the next logical juncture seems (at least to me) to give weight to that whole mess being true. If it is, Charlie Duke is in it up to his neck.
“Success” in these programs is dubious at best. The core tool of Fundamentalism is basically brainwashing. I’ve seen it, Chuckles has seen it, and many of our readers have seen it first hand. There is a fine line between a teen who may need some sort of qualified institutional facility and one who just needs more parental interaction individually. Fundamentalism has historically used these homes as a control point and failed to take into account the individuality of a child who is, essentially, crying out to be heard. Many of us were taught that you don’t question anybody “in authority” no matter what. I believe the man Job would have something to say on that matter.
The bottom line here is that there are options that employ qualified, licensed counselors. Psychology (and there is a significant, legitimate Christian practice of it) is not the enemy here. People who want to bully kids and use God as their club are the enemy.
C.P. Traveler
You are either deceived about
what is truly going on OR you are
part of the cover up! CNN was NOT
making it up!!!
I’d say one could take Romney’s
$10,000 bet that MONEY is
the sole incentive for the trip to
isolated Montanna! In the tradition
of Rex Reed’s Asian sweatshops
where his group’s workers existed
in deplorable conditions and were
FORCED to have abortions if they
became pregnant! Yet that wolf on
sheep’s clothing parades his
hypocritical piety! It is beyond disgusting!
Barry. I invite you to have an objective conversation with me about Pinehaven. My contact info is at http://www.pinehavenabuse.org.
Dearest Eugene,
I’m not going to bother you with too many “facts,” but here’s just two to get you started.
1) You have no idea how many who have commented on this post who are *indeed* survivors of Pinehaven. Who exactly is being judgmental,, Eugene?
2) WHY ARE YOU YELLING? Or was your caps-lock stuck?
Chuckles
Eugene – have you been there as a visitor or an insider. These homes always show their best on tours, but what occurs behind the scenes is what needs to be brought to light. There are numerous accounts of abuse. Check your facts, and stop drinking their kool-aid
Eugene,
Thanks for posting, but I have to agree with Chrissy. If you have never been a student at Pinehaven, then you don’t really know what is going on there. (Well, now we know since they were outed on Anderson Cooper)! But honestly, I was in one of these abusive so-called “Christian boarding schools” (Hephzibah House), and while they would never allow an outsider in to see what is going on, we still had situations when we had to put on our happy faces and act as if everything was perfect. Like when we had luncheons with board members, or when a parent was visiting one of the girls…we all knew better than to draw any attentiont to oursellves, let alone speak out against what was going on. So going in to Pinehaven as a visitor is not giving you an entirely true picture.
P.S. it does appear that you are yelling with your entire post in caps….YIKES!
Eugene,
I am just a tad bit confused at your post. I thought Bob stated that most of the children at Pinehaven were unwanted? Why would an unwanted child need “tough love”? Why would a child who had been raped need “tough love”? Why would a child who is being sexually abused, while in the care of Pinehaven, need “tough love”? Shall I go on, or do you get my point?
Under no circumstances whatsoever, should any grown adult place their hands on an innocent child, because they dont “get it”.
You stated that you have been to Pinehaven 6 times? Would that be in the form of visiting? I doubt very seriously that you would see any abuse, should you only be a visitor. People like ole Bob, are very cautious when others come to visit.
When you take a group of children, and cut them off from all outside contact, and pound it in their heads that the had better follow the ways you tell them to, they will be on their best behavior, and not express to any outsider the true abuse that is going on. If they do share, the punishment can be so severe, it would make a persons skin crawl.
For you to refer to ole Bob and his crew being the most Godly person, who cares about children, that you have ever met? That is very concerning!!
Oh, one more thing Eugene, Thanks a heap for mentioning that ole Bob has another facility!! we will be sure to investigate that program as well.
http://www.heal-online.org/teen.htm#action
Have a great day!!
SAY WHAT YOU WISH ABOUT ME, SORRY I AM NOT MUCH OF A TYPIST SO MAKE FUN, I SORT OF EXPECTED THAT. WHAT JUST AMAZES ME IS THAT THE PERSON WHO STARTED ALL THIS ISSUE WITH PINEHAVEN COULD HAVE LEFT A YEAR BEFORE HE DID AND HIS DECISION WAS ON HIS OWN, OUT OF FREE WILL, TO STAY THERE. WHEN HE LEFT ALL WAS WELL, HE EVEN GRADUATED AND LEFT ON GOOD TERMS WITH ALL INVOLVED. I AM GOING TO JUST GUESS THAT SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE DISCIPLINE GOT TO HIM, BRAINWASHED HIM AND NOW HE IS A LOOSE CANNON GATHERING ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON’T AGREE OR DID NOT LIKE THE DISCIPLINE EITHER, THAT OF COURSE IS JUST A GUESS, THOUGH. I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MOTHER OF CASSIE LOST CUSTODY TO THE STATE OF HER DAUGHTER FOR WHAT I AM SURE OF IS NOT A GOOD REASON. FURTHERMORE, CASSIE HAS NOT BEEN ORDERED TO GO BACK HOME AT THE END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR EITHER, SO LETS GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT, FOLKS. BY THE WAY, I HAVE BEEN TO PINEHAVEN FOR MANY UNANNOUNCED TRIPS, HAD LUNCH MANY TIMES JUST OUT OF THE BLUE AT MANY OF THE HOUSES, SPOKE TO MANY AND I MEAN MANY OF THE KIDS THERE WHO SEEMED TO BE VERY WELL ADAPTED AND HAPPY, EVEN THOUGH YOU ALL MAKE THIS OUT TO BE A PRISON AND ABUSIVE ENVIRONMENT. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT THE ABUSE YOU ALL SPEAK OF HAS MUCH MERIT. I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IF THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED THAT NO CORPORAL DISCIPLINE WOULD BE REQUIRED. IF THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN ABUSED AT PINEHAVEN WOULD HAVE BEEN PLACED IN A STATE INSTITUTION, THIS SO CALLED ABUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH, MUCH WORSE. PINEHAVEN HAS HAD IT SHARE OF NORMAL PROBLEMS WITH CHILDREN, STAFF AND SO ON, BUT I KNOW MANY YOUNG ADULTS WHO CLAIM THAT IF PINEHAVEN NEVER EXISTED IN THEIR LIVES THAT MOST LIKELY THEY WOULD EITHER BE IN PRISON OR NOT VERY PRODUCTIVE IN SOCIETY. I KNOW OF ONE YOUNG MAN WHO SPENT MANY YEARS THERE AND GRADUATED TOO. HE IS ON TRACK TO GENERATE A SIX FIGURE PERSONAL BUSINESS INCOME FROM A TRADE HE LEARNED THERE FROM A HOUSE PARENT WHO TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF TO TRAIN THIS YOUNG MAN. ABUSE? THE SO CALLED PIPELINE BALONEY IS JUST THAT, NOTHING BUT A CROCK OF UNTRUE LIES. AGAIN I AM AMAZED THAT OPINION WHICH DOES NOT SHARE ALL THE FACTS PRESENTED CAN BLOW SO MUCH OUT OF PROPORTION AND SWAY PEOPLE WITH PARTIAL TRUTHS. BY THE WAY, THE KOOL AID IS FINE AND THE WHOLE MILK IS THE BEST I HAVE EVER HAD.
question: “CAN I ASK ALL YOU JUDGMENTAL PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN THERE JUST EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD DO TO DEFEND YOURSELVES IF A YOUTH WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO BE UNDER YOUR CONTROL STARTED TO HIT OR FIGHT WITH ANOTHER PERSON OR WAS GOING TO HIT YOU WITH WHO KNOWS WHAT?”
Answer: Call the police. If a child is showing that they may be a harm to themselves or others, they need to be involuntarily hospitalized, and the child and entire family follow up with intensive counseling.
“IF SOME SEVERE DISCIPLINE HAS HAPPENED IT IS BECAUSE THE PAST STUDENTS REFUSED TO “GET IT” THAT THEY NEEDED TO COMPLY WITH THE STRUCTURE, BECAUSE ALL WHO DO NEVER HAVE ANY ISSUES.”
Do you realize, Eugene, that you just justified abuse? We heard what the “severe” discipline is like at Pinehaven. You just gave it a thumbs up.
“UNRULY CHILDREN NEED TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS,. HOW THEY ENDED UP AT PINEHAVEN IS BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT UNDERSTAND THIS IN THE WORLD THEY LIVED IN.”
Until Charlie Duke came into the picture and set up his child-trafficking system, kids ended up at Pinehaven not as a way to see that there are consequences for their actions, but so their parents could AVOID their child having to realize the consequences of their actions and choices. As a parent, AND survivor of one of these kinds of places, I learned that, after being assured that my kids knew right from wrong, their personal choices were their OWN, and they themselves needed to learn the consequences and benefits of THEIR choices. A parent taking that CHOICE away from a kid who knows better is not only depriving their child of an important learning experience, but they are teaching them that they are incapable of making their own choices. And these kids have it pounded in their head the entire two years, or up until they graduate that they are STILL incapable of making their own choices. That explains why so many of them return to work as employees. Because they totally UNLEARNED how to make good choices on their own. They only learned the FEAR of not following direct orders. Parents need to consider the risk they are taking when THEY make the CHOICE to put their child away, rather than the authorities making that choice.
OMG! and a home for unwed mothers called Lifehouse? Where do those babies go, Eugene? Thanks for the info on this other facility.
http://www.pinehaven.net/lifehouse.htm
It appears that the Life House is on the same property. And it clearly states that they give ‘some’ of the infants to ‘good christian families’. I wonder if ole Bob yells and screams at the pregnant child, forcing her to give her child away? I wonder if the adoption process is legal? I wonder how many of those children will be desperately searching for their child years later?
I know of several places that do forced adoptions. This is not Godly love, it is sickening!
JUST SO YOU KNOW, I AM NOT YELLING, SO PLEASE GET USED TO THIS ALL CAP TYPING. TO CHECK OUT THE OTHER FACILITY THAT AS YOU SAY “OLE BOB” HAS, YOU WONT NEED GO TO FAR AS IT IS ALREADY ON THE RANCH AND YOU CAN READ ABOUT IT ON THE WEB SIGHT. JUST SO YOU KNOW, I WOULD SPEND A WEEK AT A TIME AT THE RANCH WORKING ALL OVER AND POPPING UP IN AND OUT OF THE HOUSES REPAIRING MANY DIFFERENT ITEMS, BY MYSELF AND UNANNOUNCED. THIS WOULD MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO “HIDE” ABUSE. DID I SEE DISCIPLINE, YES I DID, BUT NOT ABUSE. I AM SO SORRY IF ANYONE HAS HAD ABUSE AT ANYPLACE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TO, BUT FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN, I JUST DON’T THINK IT WAS AT PINEHAVEN. IN REGARDS TO THE UNWANTED CHILD STATEMENT THAT YOU SAY BOB HAS USED: UNWANTED, UNSUPERVISED AND UNLOVED CHILDREN, IF LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES, ALMOST ALWAYS BECOME TROUBLE TO THEMSELVES AND OTHERS AROUND THEM. ONCE THIS OCCURS, THEY NEED TO BE BROUGHT BACK INTO REALITY AND LOVED THROUGH DISCIPLINE THAT MANY TIMES THEY DETERMINE BY THEIR ACTIONS. EVERY CASE IS DIFFERENT BUT ONE THING IS FOR SURE, REASONING WITH A TROUBLED YOUTH RARELY EVER WORKS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE ANGRY AND UNWILLING TO COOPERATE WITH THOSE PUT IN CHARGE OF THEIR CARE. IF I AM WRONG ABOUT ANY OF THIS THEN CHALK IT UP TO MY OPINION. I, LIKE YOU, AM ENTITLED TO THAT, BUT I NEVER SAW ANY OF THIS AT ALL AT PINEHAVEN. I AM A FATHER WHO WAS NOT A STRICT DISCIPLINARIAN, BUT I NEVER NEEDED THAT, AS I ALWAYS HEADED TROUBLE OFF BEFORE IT GOT OUT OF CONTROL. MY KIDS, 20 AND 23, HAVE TOLD THEIR MOTHER AND I, THAT THEY KNEW THEIR BOUNDARIES AND KNEW THERE WAS CONSEQUENCES OF GOING BEYOND THEM. THEY HAVE SAID THEY ARE GLAD THEY HAD THE DISCIPLINE THAT SO MANY OF THEIR FRIENDS DID NOT HAVE. THESE FRIENDS ARE EITHER STILL LIVING WITH THEIR PARENTS OR NOW STRUGGLING WITH KEEPING A JOB, AND MOSTLY BECAUSE THEY DON’T WANT TO TAKE ORDERS FROM THEIR BOSSES OR GO BY THE RULES THAT ARE NEEDED BY SOCIETY. RULES LIKE LISTENING, BEING ON TIME, CARING ABOUT YOUR WORKMANSHIP AND SO ON. IF NOT FOR ANY RULES OR GUIDELINES, WE COULD NOT FUNCTION AS A SOCIETY, A NATION, A BUSINESS, A SCHOOL, PINEHAVEN AND SO ON.
“JUST SO YOU KNOW, I AM NOT YELLING, SO PLEASE GET USED TO THIS ALL CAP TYPING.”
No, we don’t have to get used to your use of all cap typing.
You need to understand that typing in all caps online IS LIKE SHOUTING THROUGH AN ENTIRE CONVERSATION.
For the reader, not only is it difficult to read, but seeing a whole comment in capitals translates as SHOUTING. Used sparingly, it is a reasonable way to emphasise a point, but used throughout an entire comment, leaves the reader with the impression that the writer doesn’t have the ability to communicate other than to YELL. Soon, no one is really listening to you, all they hear is you shouting like a crazy person!
Your portrayal of this childrens home sounds unrealistic, just like a cult would actually. I personally don’t like you typing in all caps and telling me to get use to it. It smacks of exactly what I expect the children are treated like at the facility. Interesting to know you actually work there… very interesting indeed.
Touché! I can’t think of any group that’s
arrogance and controlling, manical
behavior is as intense as these so
called “Christian” cells! They are
truly shameless! Do they think their
boastful protestations of their assumed
piety fools any rational person, let
alone God? DELUSIONAL!
Eugene or Dave or Whatever his name actually is (IP 50.41.163.191 is all we really know) posted again, but I’ll spare you all from the same tirade done ALL IN CAPS. He claims not to be a good typist and expected ridicule.
Well, if you are reading this, please feel free to comment again and use mixed case with some paragraph breaks. Do that much and be polite and we’ll probably let you go one more round with our more seasoned readers who actually have been at these places and directly witnessed the hellish behavior at the hands of men who are supposed to be showing God’s love but seem bent on control and conformity to their own standards.
C.P. Traveler
Awwww….C’mon C.P! I would LOVE to see what Eugene/Dave has to say….
Okay, Simone. Eugene’s comments have been approved.
Just Because you asked
RATS!! OVERRULED AGAIN BY A HIGHER AUTHORITY!!!
C.P.
I am not sure what pregnancy has to do with mental health issues. Pregnancy is a physical issue. The mental issues of depression, that can result is cutting or are seen as sin in the IFB institutions as I have seen pastors tell people with depression not to take medication and the depression increases, Depression is a condition where the brain gets stuck in a stop position and it may take month or years to get better. To say a person is sinning when the brain is not functioning correctly is pouring gas on a fire that can escalate the thoughts of self harm due to feeling shame. Teens who are depressed need professionals monitoring the degree and the symptoms of the depression to avoid a poor outcome like suicide. Minors who are acting out may be acting out their depression and hitting or using pain to huirt that minor is only going to make the situation escelate. These kids need love and understanding not physical pain.
I am not sure what pregnancy has to do with mental health issues. Pregnancy is a physical issue. The mental issues of depression, that can result is cutting or are seen as sin in the IFB institutions as I have seen pastors tell people with depression not to take medication and the depression increases, Depression is a condition where the brain gets stuck in a stop position and it may take month or years to get better. To say a person is sinning when the brain is not functioning correctly is pouring gas on a fire that can escalate the thoughts of self harm due to feeling shame. Teens who are depressed need professionals monitoring the degree and the symptoms of the depression to avoid a poor outcome like suicide. Minors who are acting out may be acting out their depression and hitting or using pain to huirt that minor is only going to make the situation escelate. These kids need love and understanding not physical punishment.
IF PRESSURE POINT RESTRAINT IS SEVERE DISCIPLINE, ESPECIALLY IF THEIR IS HARM BEING INFLICTED WHILE WAITING ON THE COPS TO SHOW UP, THEN IT APPEARS THAT OTHERS ARE GIVING THE LIKES OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE A THUMBS UP. THIS OF COURSE BY THE OFFENDING PERSON WHO CANNOT CONTAIN THEMSELVES. MY CONCERN IS THAT ONCE THE COPS SHOW UP, WELL, DAMAGE OR EVEN DEATH TO THE INNOCENT COULD OCCUR.
“MY CONCERN IS THAT ONCE THE COPS SHOW UP, WELL, DAMAGE OR EVEN DEATH TO THE INNOCENT COULD OCCUR.”
oops. you did it again, eugene! The cops NEVER get called to Pinehaven, do they? Whether somebody (especially a CHILD) IS physically hurt………or disappears comepletely into thin air, right? EVER! So they have no idea what happens there…..
Thanks for clarifying that as well…….
WELL GENE, I READ YOUR DRIBBLE THAT YOU TYPED IN HERE AND I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO YOU. BLIND LEADING THE BLIND! YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ALL YOU DAMN “VISITORS” LEAVE! YOU SOUND JUST AS PATHETIC AS THE REST OF THESE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE THAT THIS IS “GOD’S WORK” WHY DONT YOU PUT YOUR KIDS IN ONE OF THESE HOMES FOR 1 YEAR AND SEE IF THEY COME OUT OK OR WORSE THEN EVER. PLEASE REMOVE THAT CROSS FROM YOUR ASS!
Eugene,
I dont get what your point is in coming here and posting? I can tell you that you are making things worse. You seem to know alot about Pinehaven, wich leads one to assume that you are VERY involved, far beyond just 6 or so ‘visits’. You made some serious allegations against survivors of horrific abuse, how does that make you feel?
1. You have stated that you were only a visitor at Pinehaven.
What was your reason for ‘visiting?’
2. You have stated that corporal punishment is O.K. in your book.
What is your definition of corporal punishment?
3. You have admitted that you popped in and out of many houses at Pinehaven.
Are you an employee, or do they just allow ‘anyone’ to do this?
4. You (for someone who visits) seem to know alot about the children. (past and present)
Why is that?
5. You stated that the survivor that was on AC360, must be brainwashed.
Are you sure that YOU are not the one that is brainwashed?
6. You stated that Cassie is NOT coming home at the end of the school year, and that the
state took her away from her mother.
How do you know so much about the situation, do you have proof of this?
7. You stated that ole Bob uses the ‘unwanted child’ phrase in many different forms.
He had his chance to explain himself, why didn’t he do so?
8. You stated that you were sorry, if anyone had experienced any abuse in any other place.
You sure dont sound very sorry, are you really? And why wouldn’t you be sorry for the
children who were/are being abused at Pinehaven as well?
9. You stated that you witnessed discipline at Pinehaven.
What is your definition of discipline?
10. You stated that ‘reasoning with a troubled youth, rarely works.’
How do you know this? Have you ever tried it?
11. You commented on pressure point discipline, and the cops showing up. As well as
someone getting hurt, damaged, or maybe even death occuring.
Were you refering to a child dying? Or an adult staff member?
Children ARE, and HAVE been abused at Pinehaven Eugene. Maybe YOU are blinded, or maybe you are involved? Either way, you should really think about what you are writing. The people who visit this blog come from many different places. Many are survivors of places just like Pinehaven, and know how these places ‘work’, many are survivors from different types of abusive situations in their lives, many are advocates, activists, and therapists, I believe a few are preachers, and I know some are in the medical field, oh and lets not forget that this IS a public blog, for ALL of the world to see……..
I am interested to see how you answer my questions……….
I wonder how much money Charlie Duke makes for his “referrals” to Pinehaven? And I wonder if he reports it to the IRS?
I’d bet you that the “bounty” he
gets for railroading unfortunate
victims isn’t small AND isn’t
reported on any tax form!
Interesting thought to ask the
the IRS @ that question! That’
how they got Al Capone, and if
our suspicions are right, the IRS
would give $ for those who
posited the ? to them…$ that
could go to a fund for the kids
who were abused by this disgusting
bunch of jackals! Of course if
that did prove to be true, these
perpetrators would scream that
they were being persecuted for
their faith…:(!
How true…volume isn’t a substitute
for truth…just evidence of a lack
of facts!
Slightly off topic, but here’s a couple thoughts:
1) Somewhere in this thread, the question was asked, basically, “What do parents do with a child that is out of control?” One answer was to simply call the police. I don’t how the police work in every state or city, but I can tell you from watching various friends and acquaintances over the years, that is not always a helpful answer. It works if you have a kid whose borderline testing his boundaries and is easily scared. That’s about it. Kids who are determined to do harmful things, either to themselves or to others will continue.
In SC, it is very difficult to get a troubled teen committed for any serious length of time to a mental health place unless they are to the point of actually trying to kill someone else. It’s easier for them to end up in juvenile detention for committing criminal acts against another person. But even then, it’s not as helpful as some of you would imagine. In one family, the child was violent, the parents called the cops repeatedly, but would not remove him from the home. When his actions continued toward criminal violence, he eventually ended up in prison. Yeah, the state was so helpful for that family.
Another case – the young teen son had several instances of messing with younger children, either neighbors or siblings. The parents BEGGED the state to provide mental and emotional care for their son. They even found a state funded group home, approved by Social Services, within a half hour of the family’s home, and the state REFUSED to place him there. Instead, they offered to remove the daughters from the home if the parents could not find housing for the son where there were no children!! Huh? You read that right – the perp could continue living at home and the state would remove the young victims. The extent of counselling the state of SC offered? Classes and therapy sessions a couple times a week for 5 months. The parents had to place him with a friend who worked a ton of hours, (he was the only person they knew with no children) so the young teen was left home alone for hours at a time. That was not a helpful solution for that family, but that’s what the state did. Now – the son is back in the home with his siblings. The state says he’s all “better”. I’m not so sure.
I know of a teen girl who repeatedly overdosed. The state would place her in a mental facility for 2-3 days and then send her home to her parents with no follow-up. This happened many times. The state totally failed this family.
Another teen refused to attend school. Anywhere. The state took her to court and threatened to put her in a type of “boot camp” but never followed through. Never. No help.
I have a cousin who works for DSS in another state. She has seen TONS of kids fall through the cracks. She does what she can but she freely admits there are a lot of problems with getting kids and families the help they really need, and that the state fails many, many families.
I could go on. I’m just one person and I know, personally, each of the families I have mentioned above. I have seen firsthand where the state totally failed the teenager. Imagine how many more there must be! I cannot be the only person who knows of the state failing emotionally or physically or mentally disturbed children.
I’m sure the states HAVE helped many families. I’m not saying they never do. But they are NOT the end solution as everyone seems to think.
All that said to get here: What are families who have troubled teens like this, who are NOT getting adequate help from the state, expected to do with their kids? Do you see why Christian camps appeal to parents? No decent parent wants to see their child end up in jail, and yet that is exactly what happens in many instances with out-of-control teenagers. So while it’s easy to pick on Christian facilities and all the wrong they supposedly do, it’s just as easy to see why parents are willing to take that risk. They desperately want help for their children.
2) Unrelated comment: I have an aging friend whose eyesight and typing skills are both poor and he always types in all caps. He does warn people that he’s not shouting, but that is how everything he writes is posted. It’s the only way he can see what he typed. It could be that Eugene has similar difficulties. As to not paragraphing his thoughts – I’ve read dozens and dozens of posts where the person posting hasn’t a clue how to use punctuation or paragraphs.
My advice @ trying to defend the all
caps screamer…”When you’re in a
hole, stop digging’!”. I seriously
doubt that the problem was age or
eyesight, anymore than I think a
Birthier isn’t motivated by prejudice!
What’s a Birthier?
It is the radical right that doesn’t
believe that O’Bama was really
born in America!
Oh – and I wasn’t really trying to “defend” Eugene – I know zippo about him or his affiliations with the ranch. I was just saying pointing out a possibility because I do have a friend who really does type everything in all caps, not intending it for shouting. But you could be right – Eugene could just be doing it to be annoying.
Mary P: Thank you for the definition of “Birthiers.” Is there a nickname for non-right wing Democrats who question Obama’s birth certificate? And why did you spell his name like an Irish name? “O’Bama”? Just curious.
To Chuckles or C.P. or whoever runs this blog, I was serious with my comments. What ARE parents who cannot control their children supposed to do when the state will not help? Are there ANY non-state run group homes or ranches that someone could recommend? It’s easy to point out which facilities are being abusive or tax-evading or harmful in some manner, but do you have viable options to suggest? I’m not saying parents should send their kids “wherever” and hope for the best, but I would like to know of decent facilities that I could safely recommend to people.
God didn’t give children to the church, or some pastor, or to the state, or to some boarding school. It is our understanding that God gave kids to the parents to nurture and raise.
We don’t recommend ANY group home. It is rarely, ever only the child’s fault. It is a family system problem. Most of these “homes” or boot-camps prey on desperate parents and the children too.
It is our opinion (and at least one of our personal experience) that keeping the child in the home, while the WHOLE family seek out a good family therapist works. It’s not an easy process, but it does work. Sending a child away? What happens? The child is sent off, and then returns to the same home after being out of society for awhile. Neither haven’t learned any real coping skills.
Even Dr. Phil is sending kids to a confirmed abusive home. I suspect he is given the VIP tour and all the kids are smiling and telling him how wonderful Provo Canyon is. They had better or know their life will be very hard when he and his producer leaves. Not to mention, the staff at Provo would keep the “problem kids” who may just speak out, far far away from visitors.
I encourage you to look at heal-online.org There are far too many suspected and confirmed abusive places to take the risk.
To be quite honest, I don’t know of, nor have
I heard of ANY democrat who has ever doubted
our President’s birth country, but I am
curious if you do.
No one has the obligation to name
non abusive facillaties that could
help parents with children’s behavior
problems. That could be answered
by the state and county in which
that family resides…except in the
case where those in administrative
positions abused their power to ship
children out of state and into a
Draconian pit of physical, sexual
and spiritual abuse. Your lame
attempt to say those appalled at
what happened to this child should
create alternative placement
options is just an obvious attempt
to shift the light off the abuser and
onto those who rightfully decry
this pseudo center for children!
As to my inadvertent apostrophe,
what sharky point did you think
you made…quite ridiculous!
Actually, it was the Clinton’s who first questioned President Obama’s birth records during the 2008 campaign. That’s all old news now. The Birther crap needs to die.
Let’s all try to stay on topic.
With regard to the dialogue about “Eugene” typing in all caps because he may not be able to read what he writes because of poor eyesight……..if the fool can’t see what he’s typing, then how can he be expected to SEE signs of abuse when he “visits” Pinehaven?
This link is dedicated to Eugene.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/minor_differences
Hey Eugene, I didn’t create this. It’s commonly known that all caps is interpreted this way.
What makes this whole conspiracy
even worse is the insanely rigid,
intrusive, McCarthism that BJU
holds its student body to! Students
who do not tell on other students
for Any infractions, even when the
students are home can be shipped
for not telling!
I’m reading a fabulous book, God’s
Jury, about the Inqusition and it’s
evidence in tactics in the present
day! Sounds like life at BJU or
any of the other cultic groups like
IFB, spiritually twisted sects!
Truly amazing analogies!
Kap, do you have children of your own? If you do, have you yourself been in a situation where you feel that your child/teen is uncontrollable? Also, I get the slight impression that you yourself might have been in a “program” of some sort. Did your parent(s) send YOU away? (I’m not expecting you to be honest, but I think the question was worth asking anyway.)
Personally, I can answer all three of the above questions with a YES.
And I can also clearly see that the blame for my “uncontrollable” teen (who now happens to be a functioning young adult) falls on MY shoulders. Yep. I didn’t get a handbook when my children were born outlining their individual behaviors and future problems with instructions on how to handle it. I wasn’t given step-by-step instructions on how to help them bypass the pain and guilt a child goes through during a toxic marriage and after a divorce.
Why do I get the impression that YOU may be another one who makes their living (at least partially) by RECOMMENDING “tough-love” programs to parent(s), so they dont have to shoulder any blame themselves for the way their child/teen acts out? It seems that you have a personal interest in keeping these “programs” full-up with kids. If that’s the case, then shame on you.
Any HONEST parent who has a “problem child” will never say that these “behaviors” developed overnight, unless something extremely traumatic occurred to the child/teen. Nobody can honestly say that, all of a sudden, a well-adjusted child will go ape-shit for no apparent reason. Now, I’m not referring to what is considered “normal” adolescent or teenage behaviors like the results and curiosities of sexual developement, or an interest and curiosity about the “different” lifestyles other people/families may have.
As far as parents not being able to get “help” from the state, that’s a cop-out, IMO. The STATE provides guidance counselors within the public school system who can help parents with resources for the FAMILY to get help. (Yep. I also did the counseling thing right along with 2 of my kids, and I will do it again if the need arises.)
What I think you, as well as all these other “business” people in the “lock up a child and get them out of the way” industry do, in making this “solution” so appealing to parents is giving them a guarantee of avoiding the EMBARASSMENT of their failures. “Since your kid isn’t ‘acting right’, we know that it’s a PUBLIC reflection on your parenting methods, so we’ll get them out of the way for you so you can save face!”………… FOR A HEFTY PRICE!
Kap, you make me sick.
WOW! Holy cow…you are quick to judge me and you don’t even know me. Your comments are uncalled for. I did not make rude comments to you. I didn’t say anything to deserve your outbursts. As to the O’Bama question, I really didn’t know if you meant something by it. I HONESTLY did not know what a Birther was, so how would I know what O’Bama meant? Sheesh. And I’m not even going to grace your attack with a comment as to whether or not I’m a Democrat or a “Birther” – that’s irrelevant.
First of all, I DO NOT LIE, even on forums like this where no one would ever know the difference. I have never been in a “home” and I was not an uncontrollable teenager. For what it’s worth, I was actually in college when I turned 16. I went to a middle school/high school program that allowed for advanced academic work. I took my ACT and SAT tests at 14 and was accepted at 15 to a college in my home state. I graduated 3 years later with a B. A. in English. I was a little too busy scholastically to be causing my parents any trouble. Not that my personal life has anything to do with this conversation, but I thought you should know that you made a very great error in judgment regarding my teenage years.
Secondly, I have NOTHING to do with counselling centers, placement centers, or any of that stuff. I’ve never even visited one of those places. I have several children, some of them grown, and I’ve kept them all at home, even though I think one of them would have honestly benefitted from outside help. I felt completely out of my depth and unable to help that child with their many issues, and yes we sought counselling, and no it was not helpful, but we did all survive, so I DO understand living with a child who is very difficult.
My examples were all true, too, by the way, and I have more that involve STATE abuse, which of course goes unprosecuted. It is naive to think the state has all the answers. If a parent has an uncontrollable child, I think it is only reasonable that they explore ALL options available to them, which is why I was asking if there were any places that could be recommended. I certainly didn’t think that one request was so appalling as it apparently is.
You are right on one point: These things do not happen overnight. But often there is no “reason” that a counselor or family member can put a finger on. When that happens, and the child becomes more and more out of control, there has to be some kind of solution. Shipping the child to a ranch may not be your solution, but the state removing the child and placing them in juvenile detention doesn’t seem like a good answer either. And that does happen – every day. Why is it okay for the state to do it but not the parent? That doesn’t even make sense.
I’ve met lots of people who say they were able to successfully navigate their teens’ troubled years, and what that amounts to is piercings, tattoos, hair dyes, or getting a girl pregnant. But I’m talking about serious teen troubles – things that are criminal. Shoplifting, messing physically or sexually with other children, attacking parents or siblings, car theft, drugs. These are serious offenses and just having the state lock them up isn’t what a parent wants. They want to be able to help their child, not just lock them away.
The only time I “helped” anyone in regard to their child was in trying to find a STATE RUN HOME for the troubled teen so that their other two children would not be removed from the home. (One of the examples I listed in my first post.) And the STATE failed that family. I did not seek out any “Christian prison camps” in that scenario, by the way.
I’m really sorry some of you are so quick to assume a “commie under the rock” that you can’t take an honest person’s comments for what they are. Shame on you. I don’t assume you are lying or fanatical or anything else – why do you assume things that are not true about me?
The assumptions come from what you say, “Kap”. I don’t feel any shame in that. Just like you “assume” that a private teen-lock- up is HELPFUL to a child/teen.
And again, you go back to the idea of shipping a kid off being a better solution than the ENTIRE family working on making the home situation better.
“For what it’s worth, I was actually in college when I turned 16. I went to a middle school/high school program that allowed for advanced academic work. I took my ACT and SAT tests at 14 and was accepted at 15 to a college in my home state. I graduated 3 years later……”blah blah blah. But yet you’ve never heard the term “birther”? Whatever.
“It is naive to think the state has all the answers.” This I agree with. What was said that made you ASSUME the consensus here is that the state is the “be all, end all”? It is primarily the PARENTS who need to take the initiative to get to the problem.
Also:
“You are right on one point: These things do not happen overnight. But often there is no “reason” that a counselor or family member can put a finger on.” And you know this from personal experience?
“I felt completely out of my depth and unable to help that child with their many issues, and yes we sought counselling, and no it was not helpful…” At what point did you throw your hands in the air and give up? After the first counselor? The second or third? How far and for how long did you extend the effort before you gave up on your kid?
I know of several adults (myself included) who were shipped off to be someone else’s problem as children, and they claim that the relationship with their families was gravely damaged because their PARENTS chose to be the bad guy, while at the same time passing the buck to someone else to fix all their child’s problems. By grace alone, I was one of the few I know who was able to take steps to repair the relationship with my parents, and I got an apology for it. Bottom line, “Kap”……the risk to a child is too great to ship them off to strangers, no matter how widely recommended the “program” is. Might as well hand them off to somebody on the street.
So, with that being said, and you making the claim to have never been a “program” kid yourself, never even visited one of the facilities, and never been faced with the choice of whether or not to ship your kid off to some charismatic charlatan who promises to “fix” your child, I have to ask who has made the most assumptions here?
In closing, let me also mention something about the “success” statistics that these places fraudulently lay claim to.
When we were all at the Survivors of Institutional abuse convention in Long Beach last February, we had a memorial candle light service for all those known by the attendees who had been placed in “programs” as teens, and did not have the opportunity to attend the convention with us because they were DEAD! A list of around 300 people was projected on a wall, with attending survivors taking turns reading off the names of those who had died at some point after being released. Sure, some of these had passed on due to illness, murder, drug overdoses, etc. But at least a THIRD of the people on that list of 300 had died because of SUICIDE! So………….whoever wants to use these fraudulent “success rates” to justify getting a problem kid outta the way for someone else to fix can stick their “successes” right up their keister.
So, “Kap”, how quickly do you think those parents who lost their children to suicide AFTER being released jump to recommend a “program” to the other parents with :problem” teens?
Chuckles,
Agreed! As an HH staff member, I was convinced that the parents of the HH girls were indeed most if not all of the problem. I know for a fact that two of the girls sent there had been molested by male family members. The girls were blamed and shipped off and no charges were brought against the man. I was truly sickened by this.
Why don’t these parents stop spending all their time at church and start spending quality time with their children showing them they unconditionally loving them instead of passing the buck of responsibility off onto total strangers?
My husband and I are reading the books “The Blessing” and “The Five Love Languages” which are good places to start learning how to love our friends and families. Both can be picked up at either Amazon or CBD for 5 bucks each.
Both my husband and I grew up in abusive homes and these books really helped the both of us in this regard.
I have a daughter who was traumatised by an incident that occurred several years ago, and as a result she has occasionally been ‘out of control’, to the extent that I have worried about her safety and that of those around her.
She has been hospitalised for short periods of time (less than a week at a time) while getting counselling, medication, and support for the family to help her get through this.
I have been advised by a counsellor that if she runs away or whatever, I should call the police. Not to try and scare her into being good, but in order to find her and keep her safe so we can go back to the counsellor and try and adjust how she is being supported.
I can’t imagine the amount of trauma a child who is seriously struggling would go through, just being sent out of the family home. And that’s without any further abuse going on in the destination ‘home’!
It is tough. Very tough. I love her so much and it is very hard to see her go through this. It is also very hard for the family to deal with that on top of other needs in the family.
But she is so worth it.
For those of you who would like to hear some of the truth about Bob Larsson and Pinehaven in Bob’s own words here is a link to a conversation I had with him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHml-YzGl0&feature=plcp
There are several clips on my youtube channel from this conversation. The entire conversation will be released once some people in the conversation have a chance to reply to Bob’s accusations of lying for themselves. I am actually a member of that church but refuse to go to it until things get fixed. In case anyone doesn’t know, Andy Larsson, Bob’s son and former director of Pinehaven as well as the pastor of the church actually quit both because he had been having a several years affair with a woman while married.
Just an observation: Many of the churches which support “homes” such as any of these referred to in this discussion, are abusive churches. Oh they may not practice physical abuse, but they employ the more subtle forms of spiritual, mental, and emotional abuse–coercion and intimidation. It is reflective of the mindset of these churches and their members. The point of such pastors is to keep their members intimidated and controlled, by controlling their thinking. Just start asking questions in such churches and of such pastors and pretty soon your answer will be an ultimatum to either get with their program or get out. If you choose to get out, they will malign you and shun you through gossip in an effort to compel you to return and submit to their authority. The only truly safe thing to do is to stay away from such churches to begin with. For those already in them, the only safe way to leave is quickly and quietly. It is heartbreaking tragic that such an abuse mindset has to be a part of such “churches” and “ministries.” The “successes” are simply those whose wills have been broken into compliance to the cult. Jesus Christ never broke people’s wills . . . they chose Him of their own accord and still do. Compulsion to surrender one’s will in total submission to the cult was and never has been a component of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Often physical abuse is beneath the surface in such ministries. They work very hard to keep it covered up.
VERY TRUE! As any psychiatrist will tell you, emotional/spiritual abuse leaves invisible, but highly destructive scars on the victims. Having been at BJU where the tyrants would happily, knowingly destroy any student who dared have their own spiritual beliefs or dared to question their racists, legalistic tyranny, these pharisees inflict the damage with glee and self-righteousness! Guess those “holier than thou” types skip over Christ’s condemnation of their types when he was on earth…only verses they delight in are verses they can use to dominate everyone they feel they can control…HARDLY CHRISTIAN IN INTENT!
@ Mary: Since I have come out of Fundamentalism and BJU, I see very little Christianity in any of it. In fact, I am more often shocked by the total lack of Christ-likeness demonstrated by so many of its adherents. The passing of self-righteousness condemnation upon the lives of others while, should they be called out on their own sin, will use the Bible to laughingly, mockingly justify their own wickedness. They joke about how the Bible does not apply to *them* and *their* circumstances.
A dead giveaway is their heartless cruelty of attitude toward the poor and helping them. I grew up with the mindset to never help someone I don’t know or they will be coming around for handouts all the time or they will go straight to the bar and spend any money you give them for booze . . . so better not help the needy . . . they are poor for a reason and they are being judged by God. It was such a LIE I believed for years.
That is another thing I have come to notice about Fundamentalism: it is built around a cleverly intertwined system of men’s lies which they teach as if they are doctrines of God. All seemed to be tied into a works based system of personal holiness . . . as if we have any of our own. . . . .
Skydiver:
Loved your very prescient diagnosis of the far religious (?) rights mindset that has no resemblance to what Christ showed in his lifetime; charity, concern for the underprivileged and the joy of grace divorced from the law to ALL believers! I’ve lived in those fundamental, judgmental clicks of condemning people for things as absurd as the length of someone’s sideburns! Such institutions are so reminiscent of 1984
tyranny! Legalism (especially man made legalism) is the curse of that segment of cold, cruel, heartless Christianity! Worst of all is that the :”Popes” of these groups don’t
give a fig what havoc they wreck on people who they condemn…talk about anti-Christian attitudes!!!
My spirituality has soared after decades of trying to shed the guilt trips these imposters inflict!
Pinehaven is and will always be an abusive place